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World Wide Comments on the 1999 Results 
To go to the 1998 Design Shootout Web Forum click 
here
Graphisoft News
Date: 11 May 1999
Also on Wednesday, May 26, from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. watch Graphisoft battle other leading CAD software companies for top honors in the 3D CAD shootout. The heated competition challenges 3-person teams to design a specific building complex including high-quality renderings; a walk-through animation; coordinated plans, sections and elevations; and a VRML virtual reality model -- in only three hours!
The competition is juried by architects, CAD professionals and industry gurus. ArchiCAD emerged with the most medals (17 in 21 categories) for the third year in a row at the 1998 Designers 3D CAD Shootout held in November during BuildBoston 98.
Date: 18 May 1999
From: <asams@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Ramp HELP
I am looking for parametric ramp. One of the requirements for the CAD Shootout next week is a switchback ramp that is handicap accessible. We can make one but it will take an enormous amount of time to make it fully parametric. I am sure that one of you gdl experts have made a part like this.
This is the actual problem:
1. Insert an ADA compliant ramp (1 in 12 slope) with handrails and handrail extensions (The ramp rises 24" and is switch-back with a landing)
If anyone has a part or can help me with this, please email me directly. Thanks, Angi Sams Design Integrations, Inc. Providing visual & automated solutions ArchiCAD Reseller & Certified Training
Date: 18 May 1999
From: dam379@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: Ramp HELP
There is a ramp object at www.objectsonline.com. dam
Date: 19 May 1999
From: pixldust@fastlane.net
Subject: Re: Ramp HELP
David -
I looked at www.objectsonline.com and it did not exist per Angi's specs. I hope someone from this list will help. It would be nice to walk away with 1st Place in the 3D CAD shootout!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By the way the Guys who provided an Ionic Column for the National AIA Legacy Project really came thru for us. Thanks Again Steven cofounder Dallas ArchiCAD User's Group
Date: 19 May 1999
From: Stebbins@aol.com
Subject: Re: RE: Ramp HELP
Angi:
One of my customers here in Irvine is a GDL Champion and could GDL-ise anything! His name is Payman Abolfathi and he is the system manager for one of my largest ArchiCAD installations (they have 8 copies). They do exhibit design and Payman has written over 300 custom objects for them.
One of the reasons he is so good is that he actually is an engineer and mathamatician and GDL is a piece of cake for him. I have seen a lot of his stuff and it is truly amazing! I use him to moonlight for my other customers to help them with custom objects. His office is where I do my user group in Irvine, as well, so he is used to aiding our efforts. The question is will he have the time to help. I',m sure, however, that he would love to help ArchiCAD shine! His phone number is 949/451-9100. Please feel free to use my name. BTW, do you plan on staying in the area for a while? Maybe you can help Ray and I close some sales on the Friday after the AEC (if you don't have to go back to Atlanta right away!) We'll throw in a tour of Orange County, too, with my 13 year-old son Grayson. Ever onward! John john@digitalvis.com
Date: Sun, 23 May 1999
From: glangdon@shore.net (Geoffrey Moore Langdon)
Competition is Ready to Begin
All the hundreds of details in preparing for the best competition ever in the architectural profession are all complete, and ready for the Teams to start setting up. The videos are done, the Team packets, with their secret design requirements, project scope, site, and criteria are all now sealed in their envelopes - along with the disks of site information and contours (all in AutoCAD 14, 13, and 12 DWG and DXF 14, 13, and 12 formats), and the disks with the required images for your photo-composit (this year we have just 4 choices - front, back, left, right perspectives - so you can choose what angle to best show off your building. This year every Juror has a checklist too, to make sure Teams don't simplify the problem in sneaky ways, and that checklist does get figured into the final scores. The Teams have a copy of that checklist in their packet too, so they can double check what the Jury will be looking at.
We have several emcees running the show this year - all with stopwatches to make sure we go along like clockwork and the exposure to each Team is fair and equal. A bouncer, to make sure no sketches are passed - or Beamed ! - to colleagues designing on the stage (check those PalmPilots at the door !).... ................and 14 AIA Learning units for everyone - even the audience. and that audience, while not able to directly choose the winners in the competition this year, will still have and effect and influence with the direction of the development of architectural software via an audience grading form. Also new this year is a Design Shootout party, hosted with the CAD Society, following shortly after the last Team presentation. This will be an interesting time to smooze with the actual developers of our software in an informal way, and trade opinions on how the Teams did - as no results will be known until Thursday at 1:45.
We also get to see some really new technology in use by architectural designers, as during the past year the pace of development of architectural design tools has increased dramatically. Rather than stagnating into a mature market as people had predicted in the past, the Architectural CADD category of software is taking enormous leaps - particularly now that architects are actually starting to use, and demand, architecturally intelligent 3D modeling based software as they weary of offsetting 2D polylines, and as the numbers of architects finding out that there really is a better way, starts to increase logarithmatically.
The clock starts at 10 am on Wednesday May 26th in the Los Angeles Convention Center ! The Designers 3D CAD Shootout for Architectural CADD Systems http://www.architecturalcadd.com/shootout.html Geoffrey Moore Langdon, AIA
Date: 24 May 1999
From: AA <aarchinc@idt.net>
Subject: Re: Competition is Ready to Begin
I am curious to see how Archicad will perform with this Novocainized keyboard, or they will use 5.0?? Adalbert Albu
Date: 25 May 1999
From: dthede@aecsolutions.com
Hot word just now from LA:
Bentley and AutoDesk withdrawn from the CAD shootout.
Didrik
Date: 26 May 1999
From: mail@awatco.com
> Hot word just now from LA:
> Bentley and AutoDesk withdrawn from the CAD shootout.
WOOOOOOW!!!!!
I just wonder why ...
Hope we win it at last!!!!!
Djordje Grujic
Technical Services Manager
From :
Ronald Ravenscroft, AIA, RONALD RAVENSCROFT, ARCHITECT P.A., Pettingill Hill, Lyndeboro, NH 03082, rrarchpa@jlc.net
<<< Prof Langdon. Your efforts are greatly appreciated, I think you do an admirable job and obviously dedicate many hours on making the cup competition a success. How hard would it be to have a one liner on the A/E/C Systems site or yours stating that So-in-So has won the cup........details to follow. >>>
Langdon Responds :
Not hard technologically at all, since I did have my laptop with me and have indeed uploaded web pages in the past through my cell phone.
However, being a former anthropologist (yes, there is another career in there I don't publicize) and understanding human nature. Were I to have merely announced "ArchiCAD Won" I would guess that 90% of people would not look further, or come back to the web site, either to look at the drawings, and see that all six Teams really really did an astounding job, or to look at any of the other results in the other 19 categories - some of which would be more important to certain firms than whoever won the overall. Not to diminush the importance of the Cup to helping get this event really rolling, but to a given design firm there are different priorities. A large AE Firm for instance, struggeling with how to get better coordinated may notice that Vignette A was really measuring exactly what they need to know, rather than which is the best software overall. For instance, let's say they were using AllPlan or Arris and were wondering if there is something better for their type of firm - they may have already looked at ArchiCAD and found that it didn't have the power to do Teamwork beyond about 50 people - but they would see from the results that both AllPlan and Arris are really robust network collaborating systems with many many people.
I know each of the programs in the competition. I teach and use all of them, and love them all. I also visit design firms for whom at one time or another, each of those CADD softwares is the most appropriate (as there are many many different types of architectural firms, ways of working, design styles, platform preferences, yada yada). I have trouble myself saying that any one of these is absolutely better than any one, as my wife and students can attest, - when confronted with the oft repeated question, which is best, by usual response is "for what ?".
Perhaps I am too close to these programs, but I see each as appropriate for very different firms, as they each have different strengths. Yes of course there is considerable overlap, and each of the developers companies behind them would LIKE to think they appeal to all designers, and certainly ANY CAD can be used to at least draft floorplans and whatnot. However, I see the automatic simplicity of ArchiCAD appropriate for some firms, the powerful flexibility of AllPlan appropriate to very different firms, and so on.
Thus, it is me, resisting the simple announcement "so and so won".
In fact, I would prefer to wait even until all the drawings and analysis
are all online before any official announcements, so that people would
hear the news, go right away to see for themselves, and then register their
opinions. Obviously we cannot wait that long, but several Teams say it
may be yet another week before thier drawings are up on their web sites.
Yes, we saw them all right away that wednesday, but showing an audience
a 3 or 15 meg BMP file is a far cry from converting and uploading that
same image (21 per Team) as a 20k gif file. Since the vast majority making
use of the Design Shootout have inferior computers/web connections, which
they usually upgrade when they decide on which CADD to go with, reducing
the image file sizes (which takes time) is an absolute must. It is also
unrealistic to expect the Teams, while just trying to design a building,
to do this internet optimization during their charrette. So there is inherently
going to be a delay between the event, and the results online - I guess
that is the enticement to actually go and attend !.
From: WJMarston@aol.com
I just saw this nice note at Ric Ford's MacInTouch site. Nice words about our precious tools, these PB G3s and about your competition, too!
***SNIP****
Designers 3D CAD Shoot-Out
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999
From: francois levy
Subject: PowerBooks win Shootout
I had the pleasure of being a participant a few days ago at the 4th annual Designers 3D CAD Shoot-Out, at the A/E/C Systems trade show in Los Angeles this past week. The Shoot-out is a live, 3-hour competition where teams of 3 architects and designers, each using different CAD software, are asked to design a building from scratch. The participants have no idea going into the competition what type of building is to be designed, nor where the site is to be. Participants are required to produce plans, elevations, a building section, site model, 12 perspectives, 2 high-quality renderings, a 3D metafile, and an animation. Teams are also periodically interrupted by being asked to present vignettes, showing off their particular software,s features. This is an exciting (and grueling) event.
Our team, Robert Anderson, Jeffrey Ouellette, and myself, used Diehl Graphsoft,s VectorWorks , a low-cost, object-oriented CAD program with parametric object capabilities, integrated 2D drafting and 3D modeling, texturing and information management-streets at about $600. Most other CAD teams ran $4000 a seat apps. While VectorWorks is now completely cross-platform, it had its origins on the Mac. The CAD market is heavily Wintel-oriented, and most CAD apps are Unix/NT, Windows/NT, or Mac/Windows/NT (a minority to which VectorWorks belongs). While some other teams competed using the latest 500 mHz PIIIs, our team elected to run on two PowerBook G3s (a 292 and 266, both with 192 mB RAM and 14.1 TFTs). We were able to get on the ground and run practices quickly and easily, and set-up was a breeze, of course-one cross-over cable and we were locked and loaded.
We took 3d place; the winning team (ArchiCad) ran a cross-platform solution; one of their machines as well was a G3 PowerBook. We were able to meet more requirements (such as renderings and animations) than other teams (even the second place team), in spite of their heavier boxes. We owe a lot to our software, but our iron helped, too. All in all, in a heavily Wintel world, the Mac (specifically the PowerBook) did quite well:
50% of winning computers were PowerBook G3s; 2 of the three winners used PowerBook G3s; 2 of the three winners used Mac-first cross-platform software; All of the Macs used were on winning teams.
f r a n c o i s l e v y, francois@toast.net, p r i n c i p a l, s t u d i o m o s a i c a, full service architecture partnership, http://www.studiomosaic.com, and l e c t u r e r, S c h o o l o f A r c h i t e c t u r e, T h e U n i ve r s i ty o f T e x a s a t A u s t i n
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999
From: "Denis Schmiedeke" <deneke@provide.net>
Subject: DBUG> The Shoot Out, 3D & CAD competition $$$
Well, Gang:
This is that day again when new, or old, bragging rights are before us with the annual shoot-out of the CAD venders. The emphasis, as most of you know, is a 3D presentation of a quickie program with little time to thoroughly analyze a complex problem. It's all blue-sky stuff to the give the winner incredible marketing opportunities over the next year in all the architectural journals published in the USA. Let's hope the new blood on the team can provide whatever was missing in the past three years. This is not to fault the capabilities of Mark and Rick, but added strength from a pair on the firing line of practice these days is hopeful.
With all the discussion of late over 3D, the perceived competition of ACAD, and the pricing structure of the two, and others, I think it worth a review of how past winners took advantage of their victories in their ads in our state side rags, and the other info they included. Last July in "ARCHITECTRE" Diehl Graphsoft Inc, vender for MiniCAD, now VectorWorks, presented the 1997 standings and their full feature prices as follows:
#1 MiniCAD7.........$795 #7 DenebaCAD.......$799
#2 AllPlan............$4995 #8 Architrion..........$4000
#3 Triforma.........$5325 #9 Architech.PC....$3500 [incorrect -- ed note : $1,950 for ArchiTECH.PC Full version]
#4 ArchiCAD.......$4995 #10 Arc+/Virtus......$1595
#5 Arris..............$4250 #11 BuildersCAD....$1995
#6 DataCAD.........$249 #12 AutoCAD.........$7250
[ed note : The original ad mistakenly listed ArchiTECH.PC as $3,500 - apparently someone added up the different ways of buying the software thinking they were options, the actual cost is $1,950 for ArchiTECH.PC Full version; $850 for Lite version]
Note the position AND cost of ACAD in 1997. For comparison, the inside of the back cover in the May '99 issue of the Arch Record, with Gehry on the Cover, ARRIS took the spot light with results presented in bar chart graphics as follows:
1 ARRIS............... w 500+ points
2 ArchiCAD........... w/450+
3 MicroStation....... w/450+
4 AllPlan................ w/450
5 VectorWorks...... w/425
6 ArchiTECH.PC.... w/375+
7 BuildersCAD....... w/375-
8 DataCAD............ w/350+
9 AutoCAD............ w/325-
10 DeneCAD........... w/225-
If the prices were shown with this group, MicroStation with its Architects package [note this refers to TriForma] price would soar above $10K per seat. It would seem that there should be a two module competition also, along with the 3D version, just as there has been the chatter over the past few weeks about a separate price for something less than a full blown rendering package. The down side of this would be what Evan Shu called in CT last year, "boring as hell." There could be some spice put into it, maybe with less fan-fare, to reveal the real bread-and-Butter, bang-for-bucks, packages. I'm sure there would be considerable interest, and marketing value of the results. Previously, DataCAD finished much better under such a scenario. Doubtlessly, there's much work in putting a good rendering together with the current state of all CAD packages. Ted Blockly brought this up in the last DDF issue. I attended the Advanced Rendering session at the March DataCAD conference which was conducted by Rick Morse of the LA team today, and he had a bit of a struggle with some of the features with the sample model he gave us to work on. This is not to fault Rick, for he's a very capable instructor,nor is it to fault what little I know about 3D CAD. 3D is not a trivial issue to do it visually well without the easy distortions that can set in with the perspective, colors, textures and shadows. For a real convincing and useful approach to 3D, see the February issue of ARCHITECTURE with the virtual reality renderings of Lou Kahn's unbuilt masterpieces, pp. 132-137, by Kent Larson of MIT, and read about the graphical gymnastics involved to produce the images he did. WOW! Denis Schmiedeke, AIAE
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999
From: Allen McCree <amccree@juno.com>
Subject: DBUG> Shootout?
9:55 p. CST. Dead Silence, all afternoon. Any answers? AMc
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999
From: Kent Wittwer <wittwer@pizzahutfwi.com>
Subject: DBUG> Well guys, what about the Shootout???
You just have to keep us waiting...
Have fun!
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999
From: "James Horecka, AIA" <jhorecka@pe.net>
Subject: DBUG> Tip of the Day: AutoDim
Shootout news will be coming later. James E. Horecka, AIA
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999
From: "James Goodman, AIA" <jgaia@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: FW: DBUG> Shootout?
Subject: RE: DBUG> Shootout?
I figured that ever tireless Jim Horeka would have already given a run down on the Shootout. With the user's group meeting last night, and the long drive back to Winchester, I suppose we will hear from him sometime later today.
As the understudy to the team, I was there for most of the proceedings. The best way I can find to describe Team DataCad's showing is to liken it to the Indy 500 where one of the cars could not get it's engine running when "Gentlemen start your engines" echoed from the microphone. All that work and expense just to have a obscure electronic glitch throw you out of the race. Actually the car did start the race but spent most of the race behind the pit wall.
One of Team DataCad's laptops decided that it would not work and insisted on locking up on the quarter hour. Poor Mark spent more time watching the dreaded Win98 scandisk screen than he did working on the problem. Jim Horeka and Rick Morse worked away on the other machine and maintained a calm presence in a situation that would find most of us using language that would insure a permananent place in hell. I think I might of been tempted to turn the balking IBM Thinkpad into a Launchpad to see if it's aerodynamic qualities might have been better than it's computing ability....or was it Windoze?? Oh well, the hazards of the digital age. As a result of the computer glitch, the team was not able to complete many of the required elements. I was not able to stay for the final results due to work deadlines here at the ranch, but I fear that DataCad probably scored a DNF (did not finish).
On the bright side, Rick Morse showed some very impressive features, during the vignettes, of parametric features in DataCad Spirit. From what I have seen, I think that the Softech aliance will be a great benefit to all of us in the months to come. Also the new symbols which will ship with 8.5 are really impressive.
There were fewer teams this year than last, and the big boys (Acad and Microstation) were noticeable by their absence. I felt that the most impressive showing was by Archicad. The integration between 3d and 2d, is where I feel that DataCad must be in the near future. Our office does all of our design in 3d. The need to manually transfer that information to 2d presentation and construction drawings will be hard to tolerate for much longer. From what I can see, the Spirit alliance will get us there much quicker than would have been expected. The other packages did not do much for me..strange interfaces with lots of pop-up menus all over the screen, etc.
One package, (name unremembered) had a nifty drawing error utility which would search the entire project database and find notation and graphical inconsistencies and provide automatic redlining. This feature is definitely something that either LLC or some of you DCAL gurus should look into.
A general comment about the shootout format in general. This was my first exposure, and I was disturbed by a number of things. I felt that the design problem was way to complex and that the vignettes and other b.s. going on put unnecessary pressure on the teams that does not represent a realistic working environment. I very much appreciate the work the Geoff Moore Langdon puts into the event, but I would think that the vignettes alone would be a better test of feature comparison than the design problem. Or, the vignettes should all relate to a final project design rather than being unrelated demonstrations. It was never very clear how each team handled DWG and/or DXF translation of the base topo, or some of the other issues related to the design problem itself.
Anyway, I am sure that Mark, Rick, and Jim Horeka will give you more details on their take on the competition. Unfortunately, I don't think DataCad got any marketing mileage out of the shootout, but I don't think that a wave of defections will result from it either. James Goodman, AIA
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999
From: "Kevin Shertz" <kevin@diehlgraphsoft.com>
Subject: DBUG> CAD Shootout Results -- why the delay
Everyone,
This is why no results have been announced yet on the CAD Shootout yesterday:
Results / Awards on Day After Charrette:
On Thursday afternoon May 27th all of the awards for various categories will be announced in the center of the A/E/C Systems exposition floor. This gives us a chance to make a better production of the awarding of the Architectural CADD Cup as well as let other strong performers know right away how they placed. Counting all the votes in the past took a long time, so now that will go on overnight. Meanwhile, we plan a party that night for the Teams.
This info was gleaned from:
http://www.architecturalcadd.com/S4/99differences.htm
regards, Kevin Shertz
What was the design problem this year?
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999
From: "James Goodman, AIA" <jgaia@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: DBUG> Shootout?
The problem was a 20,000 s.f., two story resort community clubhouse with lounges, spa, locker rooms, swimming pool, etc. We do golf clubhouses, and that is a real tough problem to solve in 3 weeks let alone 3 hours James Goodman, AIA
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999
From: Allen McCree <amccree@juno.com>
Subject: DBUG> Shootout?
Dear Datacad Shootout Team:
My very sincere condolences and sympathy. I face Win95 Scandisk in DC 7.5/Word Perfect/Hoyle Card Games/you-name-it 3-4 times a day(Bill Gates' "finger-wave", eh?). Even my bearded guru has no idea of where mine are coming from. Cheers and Hope, Allen McCree,FAIA (DataCad/Spirit will eventually win out. You'll see...)
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999
From: Jim Allen <jallen@northlink.com>
Subject: DBUG> Shootout
The ArchiCad salesman called here and said they won. Any more news? Jim Allen
From: "Kevin Shertz" <kevin@diehlgraphsoft.com>
Subject: Re: DBUG> Shootout
1. ArchiCAD
2. ARRIS
3. VectorWorks
I don't know the other 3 orders, unfortunately. regards, Kevin Shertz
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999
From: LunaGroup@aol.com
Subject: DBUG> 3D CADD Shootout Results are now posted
at:
http://www.architecturalcadd.com/cup/results99.html
Just thought you might be interested, though not all results are available yet. Neil Blanchard
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999
From: "Cheap Tricks" <eshu@world.std.com>
Subject: DBUG> Early Bird June Editorial from Cheap Tricks
>From the Editor:
As we write, Team DataCAD has gone into battle at the 3D Designers CADD Shootout at the AEC Systems, held on May 26th. Late word from our forum correspondents is that it was a rough day for Team DataCAD in this 3D Competition to design a 20,000 s.f., two story resort community clubhouse -- largely in part to a faulty laptop that refused to operate. It was like "the Indy 500 where one of the cars could not get it's engine running when 'Gentlemen start your engines' echoed from the microphone" reports James Goodman, AIA . DataCAD did win one of the Shootout awards for its symbol libraries; also AutoCAD and Microstation were "no shows" . . . but OTHER than that, there was lots of good news to report: the DataCAD booth looked good and was well attended by attendees and the press, and we hear that Arcon the database modeling product of the DataCAD's new Spirit partner was one of the big hits of the show . . . Look for more next month as one of our correspondents are offered to summarize the competition for Cheap Tricks.
Date: 28 May 1999
From: Stebbins@aol.com
Subject: ArchiCAD Wins Big at AEC Systems Show
Fellow ArchiColleagues:
As a participant in Graphisoft's booth at the AEC Systems Show in Los Angeles the past few days, I have the following news flash and some observations to report:
It was like the movie "Titanic" at the Academy Awards last year.
Aside from winning the top award for Best Overall CADD Program for Architecture, we won first place in MOST of the key catagories, including: Best Floor Plans, Best Collaborative/Networking Approach, Best Rendering, Best Object Technology; Best Large Scale Projects, etc. In fact it was either ArchiCAD or Arris that won ALL of the first place awards, save for one!
Our CAD Shootout Team of Angi Sams, Dan Hruby and Richard Crowe, coached by Barry Isakson (of Architectronica and "Day in the Life of an Architect" fame), did a supurb job.
For more details, check out http://www.architecturalcadd.com/shootout.html
I wish that all of you could have heard the AEC Show Keynote Speeches. Gabor Bojar, Graphisoft's CEO presentation was well-polished and indeed excellent - -- he spoke from the heart, had a pertinent message, and was far better than the CEO's of Bentley (Microstation) and AutoCAD. The audience "awarded" him with the longest applause! The AutoDesk CEO was visibally shaken to follow in his wake and her speech fell flat after the warmth and sincerity of his presentation. He made us all feel so proud to be associated with Graphisoft and ArchiCAD!
Graphiosft also participated in a hands-on training titled "Alternatives to AutoCAD and MicroStation". ArchiCAD, ARRIS and VectorWorks each had 20 minutes for participants to design as much as possible. Our training team succeeded in COMPLEATING a simple two story house with a slab, walls, windows, doors, roof, sections/elevations and a rendering. ARRIS completed the walls of a one story house with windows, doors and sections. VectorWorks (MiniCAD) completed only a slab. From a user's perspective, you might say this was the REAL CADD shootout! We got so much more work done in 20 minutes than the other guys.
Last but not least, we won one of the Best of the Show awards from Cadence Magazine.
In the awards and accolades department, it was a clean sweep for ArchiCAD and Graphisoft! In twelve years of trade show participation, I have never felt such "high energy," pride in participation and had so much fun!
As someone who has been involved with ArchiCAD since one of the first demos given in the US in 1988, I couldn't have been more proud of ArchiCAD, my fellow ArchiCAD resellers, Graphisoft and its development team and Gabor, our fearless leader, who stood head and shoulders above the CEO's of our truly worthy competitors.
And all the users can be proud that the support you have given Graphisoft with your hard-earned dollars, DM's, francs, pesos, etc. and architectural accomplishment using ArchiCAD has indeed been recognized. It is your support of the "ArchiCAD Way" that has made it all happen.
I am indeed proud to be in your midst! John Stebbins Digital Vision ArchiCAD for Southern California
Date: 29 May 1999
From: Chris Dennehy <chrisd@iol.ie>
<<< Bentley and AutoDesk withdrawn from the CAD shootout. >>>
Surely the withdrawal of these two major participants would leave the door open for the others to win hands down.
Before rushing in to congratulate GS I would like to know, from an impartial observer, the real reasons for the withdrawal.
Looking at the list of participants it seems to me that quite a few of the other CAD vendors e.g. Chief Architect, ARC+, did not enter, does anybody know why?
No! I'm not trying to detract from GS's victories, I've just been around long enough to know that everything is not always what it seems to be. Regards, Chris Dennehy, Architectural Services, Tralee. Ireland.
Date: 29 May 1999
From: Chris Dennehy <chrisd@iol.ie>
Subject: .dwg format and AutoCAD 2000
There is a review of AutoCAD's latest offering in Architecture Magazine which can be accessed through the CAD shootout report,
(http://www.architecturalcadd.com/shootout.html)
it's worth reading as it draws attention to possible file translation problems to come as follows:
1. remaining chunks of 16 bit code have been rewritten in 32 bit.
2. There have been some revisions to AutoLisp their programming language.
3. There have been revisions to the .dwg file format.
More for the upgrade merry-go-round! Regards, Chris Dennehy
From: mail@awatco.com
Subject: Re: Victory
Congratulations to the Team!
May this happen all the time!
The only thing is, now THEY can say "Of course, we were not there" ;)
Date: 30 May 1999
From: mail@awatco.com
Sorry, Chris, wish it were me, but it was Didrik who first broke the news.
The reason the others were not present is Bentley could not assemble the team, and Autodesk Architectural Desktop based on AutoCAD 2000 is not officially out yet, despite the created image of it being the best software around.
ARC+ is mostly European player, and although it does exist in the USA too, they also must have had a reason not to take part.
The list of competitors shows, for me, the key players in the AEC market, at least in the US, and very much worldwide. The European image is different, as you do have lots of locally developed software (e.g. Germany) and here in the Middle East the situation is rather simple - ArchiCAD or AutoCAD. Bentley is trying, but they are stronger in the Far East. My two fils ;) Best regards, Djordje
From: mail@awatco.com
Subject: Re: A2K
> 1. remaining chunks of 16 bit code have been rewritten in 32 bit.
In fact, it has been completely rewritten. And the whole database is object oriented.
> 2. There have been some revisions to AutoLisp their programming language.
Now you have Visual LISP, and can use VisualBasic etc.
> 3. There have been revisions to the .dwg file format.
Revision? It is again new, and the DXF is new, and the DWF is new ... so forget the backward compatibility. I just hope the Open DWG gets it soon, otherwise we also loose compatibility ...
> More for the upgrade merry-go-round!
Yes, I think (personal opinion!) that Autodesk will push the users toward Desktops, and that AutoCAD as we know it is dead, meaning that it remains the underlying engine and nothing more than that. And the upgrading will not be a piece of cake ... Let's talk about this! Djordje
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999
From: "David Porter" <dpa-arch@gate.net>
Subject: DBUG> Shootout version ??
Did 8.07 or 8.5 get used at the shootout? Was ARCON or Renderize Live used for any of the renderings produced? David Porter AIA, Palm Beach Gardens, FL, dpa-arch@gate.net, ICQ #38614810
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999
From: "James Goodman, AIA" <jgaia@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: DBUG> Shootout version ??
DataCad Spirit was used on one machine and Dcad 8.5 and Renderize were used on the other James Goodman, AIA
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999
From: "James Horecka, AIA" <jhorecka@pe.net>
Subject: Re: DBUG> Shootout version ??
Rick was using Spirit 9.
Mark was using DataCAD 8.5 and Renderize Live.
Also used were Productivity Pack 3.0 and DC Viewer, and some misc. applications and applets (like the browser, for example).
The DataCAD team was operating with two IBM ThinkPad computers running 300 MHz PII and 366MHz PII, each equipped with 128MB of system RAM, running a 100BaseT Windows98-based LAN provided by a D-Link DSH-5 Hub.
I think the laptops worked out very well for travel, as Rick and Mark were a long way from CT. They were set up and taken down several times at various locations. Desktops would have been much more trouble, and they are so fragile.
Rick attached a separate keyboard. Both attached their favorite pointing devices in lieu of the laptop's built-in device.
The shootout monitors were provided to all competitors by a sponsor (I don't recall who, but thanks to that sponsor). HP provided a large-format plotter on site, I don't recall the model, but it was a beauty.
I had my laptop with me for the trip, but of course could not use it for the competition (not enough huevos anymore anyway ;) ).
We each plugged into the Internet from our hotel rooms, of course. Can't be without THAT!
Spirit has some pretty slick features. Exciting times lay ahead. The roof tool is a lot of fun. During our preparations, it was a kick to see Rick throwing a variety of plans at it, some rather complex, and watching the roof tool take them all in stride.
ArCon was not used in the competition. I saw it demonstrated at the show, and Mr. Dieter Heimlich of mb America demonstrated it at the Southern California Users of DataCAD User Group meeting at the Bonaventure Hotel. It is as Glenn Osborne described it. I really liked its ability to "render" real-time as you built the model and added to it. Inserting a stair was killer, down to cutting the hole in the floor for you!
Patience, my friends, there will be more later. My head is still spinning after that exciting and intense event. Mark and Rick had a million things going, so I'm sure they are much more tired than I, and believe me I am shot!
James E. Horecka, AIA. ARCHITECT, 32902 Haddock Street, Winchester, California 92596, http://www.pe.net/~jhorecka, jhorecka@pe.net, 909-926-4138
Date: 31 May 1999
From: Stebbins@aol.com
Subject: Latest Shootout Results
ArchiColleagues:
Results are in for each catagory of competition...
For a summary of how each CADD team did in the Designer's 3D CAD Shootout last week at the AEC Systems show, go to architecturalcadd.com/shootout.html, choose Drawings/Models Results 1999, choose Voting Results and Reviews and see how each team did in each catagory!
Hats off to all the participants from all the CADD companies who put themselves and their talents on the line to help architectural CADD evolve for all!
And another round of applause to Team ArchiCAD!
John C. Stebbins, Principal Digital Vision Design Automation 14252 Culver Dr., Ste. A-233 Irvine, CA 92604
Date: 31 May 1999
From: jinara@redstone.net (James Johnston)
Interesting comments. I would agree, it tends to take some of the fire out of the win without these two players. However, though Bentley made a good showing last year, it still came in behind both Arris and ArchiCAD. AutoDesk wasn't there last year except as it's predecessor Autocad and it didn't finish in the top seven overall. Generally I don't think cadd programs perform well in this type of competition when first released any way.
Although I think overall Architecturalcadd does a terrific job of setting this contest up and provides fairly comprehensive criteria for comparison, I would have liked to have seen it taken one step further with some weighting of each category based on their importance. When I did this for myself with last years results ArchiCAD came in first place overall then also, in my opinion.
It would also be helpful to have a more in depth understanding of the criteria used to rank each team in each category. For instance, for the category "How is the software at being cost effective", does this take into account only the purchase price of the software or does it also include the cost of training time, quality of support etc.?
Congratulations to ArchiCAD for the win! Well deserved for a great product.
James Johnston James Johnston Architects P.S. Redmond, Washington, USA
Date: 2 Jun 1999
From: Dianne Davis <dedavis@aecsolutions.com>
The reason I was given by a Third Party Developer of AutoCAD-was that AutoCAD was not a model-centric solution, and participating in a contest based on model-centric design was not something they wanted to do. Dianne Davis
Date: 3 Jun 1999
From: pixldust@fastlane.net
Didrik -
On the shootout web page the reason for the withdrawals was : Bentley - no team volunteered,and AutoCAD 2000 w/ Architectural Desktop is still in Beta. Steven
Date: 4 Jun 1999
From: mail@awatco.com
Something is very wrong here ...
AAD does center everything on modeling, in fact the very design process starts from building the mass model using primitives. So, what happens?!?!?! Autodesk chickened out?
Maybe GML has the answer ...
Djordje
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999
From: rick@datacad.com (Richard Morse)
Subject: Re: DBUG> ARCON
I had the opportunity to use Spirit, AKA DataCAD-Spirit in the '99 CADD Shootout. My familiarity with DataCAD allowed me to learn Spirit in a very short amount of time. One of the first things I did with the program was to customize the keyboard shortcuts and create my own icon toolbars for some of the new Spirit functions. 90% of my custom keyboard macros worked without modification, and the others simply required some adjusting to compensate for the slightly different menu structure in some areas of Spirit. While the icon toolbar format is completely different from DataCAD's, I was able to figure it out in about 10 minutes. The bottom line is that if you know DataCAD well, you already know the majority of Spirit. The remainder is the new functionality Spirit brings to the DataCAD user. One of the most exciting of these is the ZAC (Zone-Associated Construction) modeling/drawing system, which allows the user to rapidly generate plans, sections and 3D models. ZAC uses intelligent walls, window and door elements. Windows and door may be freely moved between walls, even from straight to curved. 3D Roofs are also very easy to generate from the defined walls. We used ZAC in the Shootout to create one of the most ambitious design solutions. While we were disappointed that one of our computers prevented us from finishing, the model we did create in less than three hours is both testimony to the power of the ZAC system and our team captain, Jim Horecka's design ability. Look for a rendering and Jim's sketch on our web site soon. Rick Morse, Applications Engineer, DATACAD LLC
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999
From: "James Horecka, AIA" <jhorecka@pe.net>
Subject: DBUG> Re: Spirit in the Shootout (was Spirit Cost)
Of course we used Spirit at the Shootout! How could we NOT have used it? Spirit was on Rick's machine.
Mark used DataCAD for Windows v8.5 and Renderize Live.
Me, I couldn't touch either machine. :(
Much thought was put into the decisions of what to use, what to do, etc. Not all went well, to be sure, but I would hope that fellow Forummers would respect the choices that were made. We spelled out what we would be using in advance, as did all the other teams.
Mark thinks he may have traced the crash/lockup problems on his machine to the ZIP drive that he had installed. Ironically, this ZIP drive was added for the express purpose of Helping us in the Shootout, by enabling us to efficiently deliver the final files to Prof. Langdon. James E. Horecka, AIA
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999
From: "ROSS ANDREW KARP" <RAKARP@bigpond.com>
Subject: DBUG> shoot out
could someone please explain what datacad llc did at the 3d? cad shoot-out so we can seriously evaluate the current cad environment
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999
From: "Cabinet d'Architecture Madou HILLENIUS" <archi@guetali.fr>
Subject: Re: DBUG> shoot out
It is remarkeble that DC finished last on items that are thought to be DC's strong points:
---------------- DC --- No 1
Floorplans ---- 445 -- 740 ----- 66%
Elev/Sect ----- 240 -- 720 ---- 200%
total -------- 11157 -- 15967 --- 43%
In fact they were last in almost every category, but attained a gold medal for 'symbols' and bronze for 'special features'. No idea what that last is.
I took these numbers from a GIF on the shoot-out site. I don't recall its exact location.
Salutations. Don MATERMAN, Ile de la Reunion
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999
From: "G. Robert Mahrt" <i633488@thegrid.net>
Subject: DBUG> A side light to the Shoot Out
Reply-To: MiniCAD/VectorWorks User Discussion List
From: Robert Anderson <randerson@DIEHLGRAPHSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Armadillo
<<< I find it funny that Armadillo was allowed oto be showcased at the CAD Shoot Out even though it hasn't even begun to go into beta testing. That was one of the rules of the contest unless I didn't read somewhere that the vignettes allowed beta software that implied the direction of a product line. >>>
We bent the rules, but not as much as others. We used Armadillo stuff in the vignette B and a few armadillo objects (e.g. handrails) in the project. The rule is you have to be able to 'walk up and buy it.' (I would have _given_ the specific PIOs we used to anyone who insisted, in order to meet this rule.)
However, the DataCad guys used an 8.5 beta (still not available) and a $5000 third party parametrics package (making them the high-priced spread) and came in last. No one brought up the beta issue with them; no one had to. "True" beta software is going to break in the heat of that competition. Robert Anderson, Director of Content Development, Diehl Graphsoft Inc, randerson@diehlgraphsoft.com
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999
From: Michael Risso <mrisso@softcad.com>
Subject: SoftCAD
Any of the above mentioned pricing in regards to SoftCAD International's applications is completely inaccurate.
ArchiTECH.PC does not bundle with Microstation. The North American prices are: $1,950 for ArchiTECH.PC Full version; $850 for Lite version; $249.00 for APC.Draft; and SoftCAD.3D Lite version 1.16 is free!! Go to http://www.softcad.com and download a copy.
This year's event proved to be very competitive and interesting. Every team should be commended on their efforts, as the 3-hour event combined with the Vignette mini-problems is not an easy undertaking. The CAD shoot-out moves so fast that it's impossible for the judges to see how these projects are created "click-by-click. That is why I encourage all CAD professionals to download the product demos and test drive each program for themselves.
As part of the SoftCAD Team, we demonstrated that our line of CAD software is cutting edge as well as competitively priced. We produced every required element except the photo-montage, and created a video-taped final presentation. The video is available on request from info@softcad.com. During the competition, we used Pentium II 400 mhz machines with 128MB RAM and 16MB FireGL video cards for fully textured, real-time 3D walkthroughs. Our software of choice during the competition was APC.Draft priced at $249.00 and SoftCAD.3D Full version at $850.00.
If you review our shootout website, you will see a very detailed roof design, detailed 2D drawing, colorful elevations and the only bump-mapped, ray-traced rendering created by any of the participants. ArchiTECH.PC has the most powerful and productive parametric tools of any of the programs in the competition. If you download the functional demo of ArchiTECH.PC and compare it to any other CAD application, this will be very apparent. ArchiTECH.PC is a fully integrated, standalone program without the need for external rendering, terrain or stair modules.
SoftCAD.3D is an architectural surface modeler that includes 3D modeling tools, library objects, roof generator, intelligent snapping, terrain tool, stair generator, extrusion, and texture management. It also facilitates photo-realistic rendering with ray-tracing and video-quality animation. Regardless of your 2D CAD application, SoftCAD.3D is a powerful front-end design tool that can enhance any office in need of 3D modeling, rendering and animation capabilities. You can export 3D DXF (or as 2D elevations) to any CAD application. ArchiTECH.PC users can take advantage of the parametric link, through which 3D models created in SoftCAD.3D are recognized by ArchiTECH.PC as parametric building elements. This provides for a seamless link between 3D conceptual modeling and production drawings.
"SoftCAD.3D is far and away the fastest, most detailed, and most powerful 3D modeling program we've seen to date." (Awarded 5 Stars). -The editors of the ZDNet Software Library
Try SoftCAD programs and make your own comparison. The CAD shoot-out is more of a show than a true comparison of CAD products.
Michael Risso
SoftCAD Team
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999
From: "Dan Dascanio & Sonja S." <ddarchitect@pcmagic.net>
Subject: DBUG> Spirit in the Shootout
Sorry James to hear things didn't go so well at the shoot out. It reminds me of some thing I read in a backpackers guide about "dont set off on a long trip in new boots" (or untested equipment.) Thanks for your great efforts. Look ahead to next year. Dan Dascanio SCUD
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999
From: Naftali Flink <argfn@netmedia.net.il>
According to pre-ShootOut publicity, one of the Vignettes was supposed to test the various competitors abilities in handling multi-line wall intersections, material interactions, priority, etc etc. All I've heard about so far is about changing from one window type to another. That's great for a rendering program, but not for a serious architectural application.
Allplan is the only program I know of where one can also CHANGE properties of a multiline wall in terms of penwidth, pencolor, linetype, z-base, z-hite, fill, hatch pattern, AFTER it has been drawn, on ANY ONE of the components of a multiline wall. As for the others, after a wall has been drawn, it's untouchable by your mouse, with regards all of the above. Naftali Flink, Architect
Langdon Responds :
Actually, now, in addition to AllPlan, a number of other programs can indeed set wall material priorities and change them, at least in certain specific ways, amung them - TriForma, and ArchiCAD. Since every single program in the competition can now easily (and in most cases automaticaly) clean up various wall intersections, in the interest of time, the parametric wall vignette (in which we would have tested that) this year just asked for the door and window changes. Similarly, in the stairs, ramps, and elevators vignette this year we did not ask for an elevator (or escallator) but leave that open for next year.
By pushing for the parametric ramp this year it forced the companies to actually think about giving us a tool for this omnipresent architectural element - witness the scramble the ArchiCAD Team had the week before the competition at the start of this forum.
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999
From: "Ted Blockley" <webarch@kern.com>
Subject: Re: DBUG> AutoCAD 2000 & DataCAD DWG/DXF translator
<<< Wasch@aol.com wrote:
Periodically I receive an advertisement from a local AutoCAD dealer for training and sales of the AutoCAD product line. A great deal of emphasis is placed on the mechanical side of the product, not so much on the architectural. >>>
The Tail is wagging the dog again. Autodesk uses FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt) to sell seats. On the consulting engineer side, those boys typically work for quite a few different firms, each with their own, often peculiar, standards and habits. Autocad will tell those folks they need to go with "the standard", and they do.
Nothing irritates someone more than to be told that you made a $3,000 - $30,000 boo-boo in selecting a CAD system, especially when as a Principal, you haven't a clue about the ramifications of the alternatives. Which is why Architects using Datacad get resistance from many consultants.
Now that the engineers are mostly on Autodesk's "side", sales of the Architectural seats becomes easier, because of the purported relative ease of sending them files. More FUD about deadlines and lost data goes down the pike and there you are in a muddle with uninformed decisionmakers in the architectural offices.
I believe that Steve Jobs taunted Bill Gates with a jab about the inferiorority of Windows. Gates' reply was a calm "It doesn't matter". And it didn't when there were lots of "developing" alternatives to choose from. Now that the market has matured and the number of players has dwindled, competition on merit should pick up. The leaders don't want that game to develop, so they see no advantage in participating in things like the CAD shoot-out. Microstation and Autodesk were a bit humbled in 1998, so they didn't return in '99- it is to be expected.
Datacad seems to be on the right course, don't know about the speed, but the heading seems right to me. Ted Blockley
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999
From: Rick Ferrara <RickF@swbell.net>
Subject: DBUG> Modify the core for others....NOT....
<<< Wayne Shultz wrote:
I should think that a subset of tools integrated directly into the software for use by Structural Engineers, Mechanical Engineers, >>>
Wayne,
With all due respect I don't think that this is at all a good idea.... For years we've all been asking DCAD LLC to give us TOOLS for doing ARCHITECTURE..... to date we've gotten a slow drip of a stream that has failed to keep up with other platforms.... don't get me wrong, I love DataCAD, but everyone has to admit that the upgrades that we've seen in real tools has been slow at best, and have generally been limited to items that will allow DCAD LLC to convince the world that they're selling a modern package, and not tools that allow us to modernize our work flow.
The idea that we'd want DCAD LLC to diminish their focus on architectural users in favor of structural, mechanical and civil engineers who can all go buy any number of very sophisticated and established software titles is throwing good money after bad.
Here's my point.... Not ACAD, MStation or any of the other major packages have CORE code that supports these various professions. What they do have is access to robust and established programming lang's that allow OTHERS (or the publisher) to develop specific applications using modern tools. If we demand anything, I vote that we demand hooks into DCAD for a variety of languages like Visual Basic, Visual C++ and let developers who already know these languages let the market dictate what they write and sell. I for one want the ability to write specific apps in something besides DCAL. I can go to any Jr. College and take programming classes in any of the Visual languages, but go try to find a Pascal class.... or find a programmer who knows Pascal (and still wants to write in it), is interested in learning DCAL and who won't charge you a small fortune to write code. IF you find one, let me know !
Finally, one has to consider that engineers will always be forced to evaluate the market in which they work. If DWG or DGN is the prevailing file format, they must seriously consider the consequences of deviating from this format. I can't imagine any of my consultants seriously considering " bucking the system " even when they see how easy DCAD is to use, and how good our drawings look.... In a perfect world we'd all be working in a standardized file format, so that the database could be opened by a variety of applications and perform what ever task is required... I won't wait for this day.... so opening up the ability to add outside apps to DCAD is the best way in my opinion. Rick Ferrara
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999
From: Michael Smith <wmitrop@tiac.net>
Have to agree with all these points, especially the last one.
One reason ACAD has always fallen short is that it tries to be all things to all users, and never succeeds at any of it. How could it?
Mike Smith William Mitropoulos Associates
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999
From: scott sayre <sgsayre@earthlink.net>
Subject: Shootout challenges for next year
Professor Langdon:
After reading about the competition for some years, I was pleased to finally have the opportunity to attend. Thank you for your tireless efforts to make this a reality.
Like most members of the audience, I as disappointed that AutoCad and Microstation did not choose to participate. While I can guess why AutoCad did not come, based on their previous showings, I was puzzled about Microstation, and asked about it at their booth. I was told by a senior staff member that they felt the competition was not structured to show the strengths of their software, and that therefore it was not in their interest to attend. He also noted that Microstation, like AutoCad, is used by a variety of professionals, and that architects are not a huge part of their base.
While Bentley's attitude that "this competition is beneath us" is laughable, there is a least a small kernel of truth in this position. Are there some other aspects that could reasonably be worked into the time frame of the next competition? For example, Microstation J is touted for its abilities to work over the internet. How about setting up a high speed connection where a team member is in another part of the building, or some other remote location? Assign specific tasks which need to be brought together in the finished project.
Without skewing the competition in favor of any particular software, maybe there are some tasks that can be modified or added which would encourage Microstation, and AutoCad, and others to return to the fray. The representative I spoke with thought, naturally, that Microstation would win if they showed up. I'd just like to see more software put to the test.
Congratulations to the ArchiCad team. I was pleasantly surprised by their software. And thank you again for your work in putting on this wonderful presentation. Yours truly, Scott G. Sayre Architect
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999
From: "DDN" <DDN@DataCAD.com>
Subject: RE: DBUG> Window Master macro/Other macro ideas
.....
Railing/Ramp Macro. I developed a quick macro for use at the shootout. It was a hack but did its job. We decided to continue to develop this macro for mass consumption. What it will do is draw 2d/3d handicapped ramps and railings. This will be rolled out in stages. First you will see a pipe railing macro followed by the entire ramp macro. We will focus on pipe railings and concrete ramps first and see about the need for wood constructed ramps/railings....
Patrick B. McConnell, Site Coordinator, DataCAD Developer Network, DDN Chat Room on ICQ #38031885, http://www.datacad.com/dcal/ddn.html
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1999
From: "Geoffrey Moore Langdon" <glangdon@architecturalcadd.com>
From what the ArchiCAD, ARRIS, and DataCAD Teams reported, the Teams really did need to work with their software developers in order to get those ramp macros going, which, in the long run, will benefit all architect CADD users. I guess it is time to warn them that we really want to see escallators and elevators (and even better ramps again) for the 2000 Design Shootout...
From: Steven Williams
To : Ralph Grabowski
Letters to the Editor
Re: A/E/C Systems Report
"You are too much AutoCAD and Bentley focused. There are CAD companies out there that actually do a better job. They are more forward thinking and not just trying to hang onto marketshare through deception based upon millions of lines of antique code. If I wanted to read what AutoCAD and Bentley have to say I would visit their Web site. Your coverage of the CADD Shootout was lame and your on the scene reporter or friend didn't even attend. The competetion IMHO was the Highlight of the show."-- Steven Williams
Martyn Day replies: "Hmmmmm... well, initial point taken, but you have to know where I'm coming from. I run two independent CAD magzines: one's for Bentley users, the other is for AutoCAD customers. So, sorry if my report is skewed, but that's my job and those are the two corporates that I concentrate on.
"In my opinion, exhibition-based CAD shoot-outs are a total waste of time. Nearly every vendor gets to go home with a prize for at least one category, and then they bombard me with press releases saying they won. If I print one of the press releases, I can guarantee you that the others will be on my back saying, 'No, we won. Print a retraction, or we will take you to court!' (this has actually happened). So shoot-outs don't get covered because: They are meaningless. They cause me greif. And in the end, if you really want to buy a solution, you can not beat testing the software yourself.
"Glad you at least attended the show <G>."
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1999
From: "Geoffrey Moore Langdon" <glangdon@architecturalcadd.com>
"Oh, and the CADD shootouts mean nothing to me or my business. I don't need
the fastest tool, I need the best tool, speed is only one feature among many." -- Paul Freeman
I would agree completely with Paul Freeman that speed is only one feature and also that CADD shootouts as they have been done in the past mean nothing, not only to him, but to most designers.
This is why we made the Design Shootout entirely different from the speed "count the clicks" tests of the past. In fact, of the 19 evaluation categories (on which they were graded not ranked) which included how well the software allowed for network collaboration, and automatic section generation, "speed" was not an evaluation category. The Teams had 3 hours of informal and 15 minutes of formal presentation time to show us what they could do with their software with the architectural design project assigned as a way to level the playing field. Several Teams chose to take some of that time to make exactly the point of Paul Freeman - i.e. the SoftCAD people had a way of instantly popping in the required handicapped ramp, but instead opted to show us live how they could design and construct a custom designed one. If you dismiss the Design Shootout thinking it is merely some sort of speed test you are missing out on yet another, of many, ways to help evaluate architectural design systems.
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999
After reading through many of the comments listed year after year, it's not surprising that Autodesk and Bently decided to opt out, as the assessment is beginning to look somewhat biased. It is also unfortunate that the DataCAD Team had technical problems with their laptop meaning they lost valuable time and were unable to complete or even compete evenly with the other teams who didn't experience PC problems.
I've been using CAD for almost 15 years and have been fluent in all three packages, yet as a Director in one of my cities largest architectural practices, have had to decide on which package our office should adopt. We have all three but only use DataCAD in the mainstream as it produces the best output for the best price. Based on experience, we have also found that new users learn DataCAD much faster than the other two systems, resulting in greater productivity at an earlier stage. The DataCAD we use today is more of a 'Complete Office' system, (2D drafting, 3D modelling, Rendering, Animation, Desktop Publishing, Web Page Interactive Viewing ...) compared with the earlier version we started with back in the early '90's.
I also lecture at the local University which teaches AutoCAD and DataCAD (to architects and interior designers), and Archicad (to builders). I purposely weight the marking giving assignments 60% and the exam 40% as I always have several students who perform well during the assignments, showing they clearly understand how to use the system and complete the set tasks, yet 'have a bad day' during the exam, whether it be nerves or technical problems with the computer. If all the marks were on the exam, as per the CAD Shootout, technically, those having a 'bad day' would fail, or show they didn't understand, when in fact, they do. I think the fact that DataCAD is Globally Number Two indicates it is a competent system that produces the goods.
I find that students, who have access to all three systems, choose DataCAD as their favorite - perhaps this is another method of judging which system is 'best' ?, yf, Mark Bell, Peddle Thorp NT Architects, Australia
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1999
From: "Geoffrey Moore Langdon" <glangdon@architecturalcadd.com>
>After reading through many of the comments listed year after year, it's not surprising that Autodesk and Bently decided to opt out, as the assessment is beginning to look somewhat biased.
While I would agree that the 99webcomments.htm forum looks biased, primerily because it seems that DataCAD users and ArchiCAD users are the most vocal about their software in these online forums, I sincerely do not believe that the jury was biased either towards or against those particular packages -- in fact 75% of the jury every year has been AutoCAD users/AutoCAD trainers/AutoCAD consultants, and no individual juror ever ranked AutoCAD either way up or way down relative to the other jurors or even the attending audience (showing they were going by what the Team produced that day, as they should).
I also know for a fact that any percieved bias was not the reason for either Autodesk's nor Bentley's non-participation. In fact the true reasons, I have never stated, as it could be embarrasing or damaging to certain individuals or companies. I has nothing to do, however, with perceived biases, or that they do not recognize the importance of the Design shootout in defining the players in the architectural CADD market.
>I find that students, who have access to all three systems, choose DataCAD as their favorite - perhaps this is another method of judging which system is 'best' ?
I have the same experience. When exposed to all three, more than 65% choose DataCAD as their favorite (I survey them all the time). As to how, or whether, to find a way to officially evaluate or judge this quality - which is sort of a combination of "usability" and "user friendliness" - I am not sure.
In past years we were actually concerned about the audience vote merely reflecting their favorites, rather than seriously watching the design charrette and evaluating the Teams fairly, and did things such as restrict voting only to those who actually attended the whole thing and so on. This was to prevent hords of people comming in at the last minute, not seeing either the charrette or presentations, and just voting for their favorites.
This year both the jury and the audience had to list their primary CADD (s) at the top of their form, though we did not ask whether what they use was actually their favorite. We did, ask, though, how likely they would switch.
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999
Subject: 2000 winner
i'm surprised that softplan didn't attend. i'm a softplan user and from what i've seen of the winning entries, i believe softplan will be the year 2000 winner. we now have a super users group and are getting organized. this is not a threat, it's a promise. just wait guys. we'll be there with bells on. version 11 will knock your socks off. thanks for listening, rpc
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999
From: "Geoffrey Moore Langdon" <glangdon@architecturalcadd.com>
SoftPlan was invited, and I spoke with them many times. They said something about it not being their market - I could dig up their exact quote if you like.
Anyway, for 2000 we want to make it easier for anyone to come forward
and compete - so that enthusiastic designers such as yourself could come
forward sponsored by your user group. This is the way this Design Shootout
event started - with architects who are advocates of their software. This
way, the software developers cannot avoid participating for marketing reasons.
If you wish to have your comments posted email us
To go to the 1998 Design Shootout Web Forum click here